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Missing the punch from the PD now I have a CR, understand?!


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#1 Cossie boy

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Posted 02 November 2015 - 11:27 AM

Hi all

 

Have any of you owned a PD130/140/150/170 and then gone to a CR 140/170 and missed that low down punch of acceleration?!

 

If so, how have you dealt with this?

 

I am hoping a remap may sort the issue I have after going from a Leon MK1 FR PD150 which I am fairly sure had been mapped to a Leon MK2 FR CR170 and it just feeling, hmmm not as good? and doesn’t seem to put a smile on my face.

 

Ok I know these are not racing cars but I really miss the flexibility and pulling low down in any gear of my MK1 :/

 

Having previously owned a GT TDi 110 and Bora SE 115 I know after the remap it transformed the cars, so I am really hoping it would happen again!

 

Any advice much appreciated..

 

Many thanks

 

CB




#2 ARV_90

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 08:52 AM

 I had a PD150 (ARL) mk4 Golf and it always put a smile on my face when the boost came on with an almighty push.  I now have a Mk6 GTD 170 which i think has the same engine as the Leon and feel exactly the same as you... It is a very linear power delivery and does go well... a bit to refined with no personality though. Once all this emissions stuff is sorted i'm going to get it mapped and hopefully get some of it's soul back ;-)


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#3 iamcammers

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Posted 03 November 2015 - 09:09 PM

In many respects this is something i can sympathise with, there is a certain attraction about PDs and the way in which they drive  :wub:  even if they're abit "dated", that the newer CRs are missing. That's not a criticism of what VW has done with the Common Rail Diesel, as they’re miles more refined then there ancestors.

 

I guess ultimately the PDs demise was attributed to slightly dated technology, as well as being sooty engines (by their very nature) in comparison to modern diesel could do.


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#4 Cossie boy

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 08:38 AM

Thanks for feedback

 

Its strange isn't it. I recall when I first joined this forum I had a MK4 GT TDi 110 then a Bora 115 and recall the lads with the 130/150'saying when they got their new MK5 PD140s they didn't feel as fast.

 

Now it seems the people with the PD 140/170s are getting the CRs and saying the same!

 

Having driven it for nearly three weeks now I am appreciating the refinement of the car in general. Although one criticism is with town driving. My PD150 was fine doing 30mph in 4th and even 5th at times, where as the CR does not like 30mph in 4th one bit! Am really hoping a remap may smooth this out too! 



#5 xJay1337

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:29 AM

I found my 170 fine around town. It shifted but didn't have the "kick" of a PD engine but in reality it's not slower than an equivalent PD lump.

Remapping will help. 


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#6 welder1

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:32 AM

Had my 2012 Jetta remapped and now thinking of dsg remap too. Peter

#7 Ian_TDI

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 02:18 PM

Yes, I know exaclty what you mean, I had a Mk4 1.9 TDI130, and recenlty got a 2.0TDI140, and immediatly noticed lack of punch in the new 140.

The power is definately still there - overall it accelerates the same, it just does it more progressively I think, so you don't get that punch like in the mk4.

My daughter has my old TDI130 now, so I still get to drive it.   Last time I checked out the "PD punch" and yes a defiate kick, then I looked in the mirror and a definate cloud of smoke too!  Not sure if this is the "old engine design" or the fact it i an just an "old engine" (120K miles)

I am still wondering about a re-map.  I am more an MPG man than a BHP man these days, but I do like a bit of power now and again!



#8 Gti Fly

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Posted 08 November 2015 - 11:08 PM

the newer common rail engines just dont have that PD torque spike at 2000rpm. 

 

They made the common rail engines smoother and more progressive (wider rev range!!)  to give it a more petrol engine feel

 

All these years of ppl complaining that diesels drive with a huge lump of power then nothing,   and now they make em more petrol like and ppl want them to drive like old diesels again :lol-lol: :lol-lol:


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#9 dds1743

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 02:03 PM

Its nice to know my feel for the characteristics of a CR are noticed by others too..

 

I've recently come from a mk4 130bhp PD with 190k on the clock, The power delivery is worlds apart, but after a few weeks of driving a CR I'm really getting used to it. I love the smoothness 

 

Anyone else noticed the sound of the CR is more 'tinny' than a PD's 'thump' 



#10 xJay1337

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 02:57 PM

Far more refined engine in terms of noise.

The tinny noise you hear is the fuel pump generating 2000 bar of pressure :-)

as opposed to camshafts whacking the top of injectors as they did on the pd engine. 


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#11 gerrywac

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 04:08 PM

In many respects this is something i can sympathise with, there is a certain attraction about PDs and the way in which they drive  :wub:  even if they're abit "dated", that the newer CRs are missing. That's not a criticism of what VW has done with the Common Rail Diesel, as they’re miles more refined then there ancestors.

 

I guess ultimately the PDs demise was attributed to slightly dated technology, as well as being sooty engines (by their very nature) in comparison to modern diesel could do.

The PD engines were pretty cutting edge when they were developed, introducing unit injector technology (common in modern truck diesels I believe) to the small diesel and greatly increased injector pressures giving class leading power, economy and emissions including soot for some time

 

Ultimately it did prove to be something of a development dead end in terms of ever increasing injection pressure but in also in not permitting multiple injection per power stroke and even better combustion control to produce even better power, economy and emissions

 

Still a great concept before common rail improved and ironed out early snags



#12 PokerProTDI150

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 07:51 PM

Got my first drive in a mk5 gttdi 170 a few week back, did around 40 miles on a mix of natianal speed limit country roads and around town.

 

When my mate asked me what i think about it i said ..... it needs a remap.

 

The reason i ended up driving it was because my mate was complaining about it feeling slow.

 

No doubt the standard suspension setup is much better on mk5 gt compared to mk4 gt .... but who keeps standard suspension anyway.


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#13 Cossie boy

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 10:47 PM

Far more refined engine in terms of noise.
The tinny noise you hear is the fuel pump generating 2000 bar of pressure :-)
as opposed to camshafts whacking the top of injectors as they did on the pd engine.


Could this sound like a tappety or pinking noise?

I'm guessing if the timing on the fuel pump was out slightly it could make the noise more pronounced?

#14 gerrywac

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 11:08 PM

Could this sound like a tappety or pinking noise?

I'm guessing if the timing on the fuel pump was out slightly it could make the noise more pronounced?

Pumps on common rail don't have any timing, it's just a single high pressure pump on the "common rail" that feeds all of the engine injectors. The injectors just open and close very quickly at the appropriate time



#15 Cossie boy

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 11:14 PM

I thought the cambelt runs on the cam, fuel pump and crank, and there is an adjustment on all three which need to be pinned?

#16 gerrywac

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Posted 07 January 2016 - 11:32 PM

It did on the VE pumps on the non PD Mk4 diesels. They were timed off the cambelt and had 4 individual HP lines one to each injector. That's why the pump had a locking pin to keep the pump in sync with the crank and camshaft

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#17 dieseljuice

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 05:44 PM

Yup! - I agree. I had 1.9 PD golf 105ps and I loved the kick. Wife had Ibiza DAB with same engine but it knocked spots of my MK5 golf and it just fleeeeeeeew and always put a big smile on my face. Now I have MK6 Golf 2.0 TDi 140ps and still a good kick but not like the PD. Wife now has TT MK2 170ps TDi Quattro and although on paper is fastest ...no kick at all really...maybe should have got non quattro petrol TT? Long live the lovely PD engine....and no smoke recall!

#18 pyromorph

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Posted 24 July 2016 - 06:24 PM

I own a Fabia MK1 VRS (150k+ ASZ), a MK4 Golf Estate (90k ASZ) and now a MK5 Golf 2.0 16v 4-Motion (55k BKD). I've moved from the vRS to the Golf MK5 as a daily drive and the MK5 is slower, noticeably. Although I've not done a straight line race, under 2K the vRS and the Golf estate wipe the floor with the MK5. Yet all three are PD's...

 

That said, the MK5 is a better car to drive by miles. It's smoother, quieter, more comfortable and a nicer place to sit. From stationary, you slam your foot to the floor on the vRS or MK4 and they rev their brains out and spins their tires.. You slam your foot down in the MK5 and it seems to think about things for a while, makes a brew, reads the latest edition of the economist and then if you're lucky, accelerates. When it does, especially with the 4-motion, it puts it down. I put the "lag" down to the fact that the car is heavier than the other two. It's screaming out for a re-map, which is on my list.

 

The vRS though... I struggle to stand it on the motorway with the uncomfortable ride and ear bleed, but ... damn.. it puts a smile on my face.. High torque in a shopping trolley, it's the only way to fly (or die?).

 

Not sure I want a CR though.. Maybe not because of the injector tech, but the fact that the cars all come with DPF's.. I've been fortunate that I've got 3 PD's without them.



#19 xJay1337

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 10:58 AM

I thought the cambelt runs on the cam, fuel pump and crank, and there is an adjustment on all three which need to be pinned?

 

It does. The fuel pump doesn't need to be adjusted AFAIK.

Timing on the crank/cam does of course.

 

 

Regarding DPFs there are no issues with the DPFs on Common Rail cars. They had issues on PD engines as they weren't designed for them. Common rail cars have been using DPFs for well over 10 years without major issues.


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#20 Cossie boy

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Posted 25 July 2016 - 07:18 PM

Interesting about there not being a timing adjustment on the fuel pump on the CR as I had it supposedly checked when I had that car and was shown photos of the locking pins not lining up and the fuel pump timing also being out...saying that it made no difference what so ever, meh!

 

I ended up selling the CR 170 and bought a PD 150...which I luv again :D it has been mapped and is faster than the CR, whilst feeling a lot more fun and giving much better mpg. 180/90 miles on £20 compared to 150/60 in the CR so I'm happy :)

 

I agree the CR are probably more refined but I am probs just old school and like the older tech. Would also add I did just under 20 minute commutes to work for about 6 months, no DPF issues but it off raised the revs and done its regen and occasionally smelt hot!



#21 xJay1337

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 10:01 AM

Having driven my friends tuned PD130 I think they are very different but I prefer the CR way now :lol:

 

Each to their own! Did you not map the CR? It would have been quicker than the mapped PD150 then :-)

 

There may be a timing setting but from what I've read it doesn't matter if the timing on the pump is set or not. Bobby may know more. 


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wow. such race-car ^^ very click ^^  so diesel much mpg  


#22 Dan FR

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 10:18 AM

PD lumps feel faster than they are

 

CR lumps are faster than they feel

 

Having driven quite a few of each I still prefer a turbo to kick in early and hard with that punchiness that the older PD lumps have........ even if they aren't all that fast


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#23 gerrywac

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Posted 26 July 2016 - 11:41 AM

Having driven my friends tuned PD130 I think they are very different but I prefer the CR way now
Each to their own! Did you not map the CR? It would have been quicker than the mapped PD150 then :-)

There may be a timing setting but from what I've read it doesn't matter if the timing on the pump is set or not. Bobby may know more.

Common rail isn't like the old VEP pump that delivered discrete and synchronised pulses of high pressure fuel to each cylinder injector in turn.

As the name implies it delivers high pressure fuel to a "common rail" that acts as a reservoir to all the injectors with a continuous supply to draw on. The timing is controlled by the electronically opening and closing the injector to allow precisely the correct amount(s) of fuel at the right time(s) and for the right duration(s) for each cylinder and aloes multiple injections for each firing stroke.

The much greater control of the timing and duration over previous systems makes for a more powerful smoother quieter cleaner and fuel efficient engine.

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#24 xJay1337

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Posted 27 July 2016 - 08:58 AM

I know how it works :-) I've spent enough on tuning it lol. 


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#25 dervdave

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 08:45 AM

Long live the lovely PD engine....

 

 

:wub:


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#26 AshOHFK

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 09:07 AM

PD lumps feel faster than they are

 

CR lumps are faster than they feel

 

Having driven quite a few of each I still prefer a turbo to kick in early and hard with that punchiness that the older PD lumps have........ even if they aren't all that fast

 

This is spot on,

my dads got a mk5 140bhp. feels the most boring car to drive, but the 0-100mph is probably not far off my 170-180bhp PD.


 

 

Owned far too many mkivs.


#27 Franko180

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 09:09 AM

This reminds me of the "R32 is slow" argument that 1.8T boys often have, because the 3.2 delivery is linear and no hard hitting moment of boost. Yet making a 1.8T match an R32's 0-60 time requires quite a few mods, stage 2 sort of level (and a dry road for traction).


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#28 Cossie boy

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 09:12 AM

Really? Do you mean MK6 with the CR 140? as The MK5140 is still a PD and still felt lively to me



#29 Gti Fly

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 09:17 AM

Really? Do you mean MK6 with the CR 140? as The MK5140 is still a PD and still felt lively to me


On mk5 they had pd140 till around 2008 after which they swapped to cr140

My 2008 jetta 140 sport is a bkd (pd140) engine. Jettas in 2009 were common rail

At first I thought my jetta was a cr, from the way it drove compared to my pd100 fabia, but after driving a friend's cr140 loan car (tiguan) that felt like a petrol in comparison, real quiet real smooth and massive rev range

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Shoulda got a 150 tdi - everyone knows they are best..

 


#30 AshOHFK

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Posted 14 November 2016 - 09:23 AM

Really? Do you mean MK6 with the CR 140? as The MK5140 is still a PD and still felt lively to me

 

On mk5 they had pd140 till around 2008 after which they swapped to cr140

My 2008 jetta 140 sport is a bkd (pd140) engine. Jettas in 2009 were common rail

At first I thought my jetta was a cr, from the way it drove compared to my pd100 fabia, but after driving a friend's cr140 loan car (tiguan) that felt like a petrol in comparison, real quiet real smooth and massive rev range

 

His is a 58 plate facelift model GT Sport, so the later engine then I guess.

 

scrap that, just checked by his reg and yeah its a BKD, but doesn't feel punchy at all


 

 

Owned far too many mkivs.





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