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Help with a dodgy V6 4Motion purchase. Please, any advice appreciated.


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#1 Manderson

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:19 PM

I have just bought a 2003 4Mo from an independant dealer. I was moving up from my Mk3 Gti and was looking for a clean V6 for a while but wanted black with black leather rather than tan or cloth. Saw one advertised with 40k and thought it was too good to be true - it was.


I drove it, fell in love, and stupidly bought it there and then, accepting that i would need to spend a few quid sorting the usual niggles (i did do an HPI and a My Car Check which came up fine). I have had VW's since my first car and now I feel such a Parus caeruleus as I should have seen the problems. I noticed that the O/S headlight wasn't looking quite right as it had the 'fake' fog but thought it was just a cheap repair by a previous owner. Essentially, problems with the door shuts on the O/S so I had it  looked at by a local independant VW mechanic to sort the headlight and problems with the door (open door alarm with lights on not working, open door alert on the dash not working, safety light on the bottom of the door not working). I was then toild that my new love was perhaps not what it should be and to take it to a bodyshop who specialises in VW work.


Its had a proper knock to the O/S. Front O/S wheel is minus 10mm, damage to the A post, Roof to B-post crease (how the f did i not see that!), Inner and outer sill damage, floor pan damage, inadequate welding, door and boot shuts poorly painted. Front wing, door, rear quarter (part) all replaced with second hand parts prized from another motor (some of which were from a red car). Badly spot welded with a mig welder rather than seamed or spot welded properly.


To say that I am devestated is an understatement. To say that I am feeling like an idiot to not notice some signs even before the garage today put it on a ramp and lifted all the carpets and trim etc is even more so of an idiot, i should not be allowed to buy another car. It is so so obvious now.


I have spoken to the garage i bought it from and they have basically said that they inspected the car, had it MOT'd and that I looked at it and bought it, so its my problem. The place that I took it to today who i have used for over 10 years to do my bodywork on my split screen and Mk1 have said that its the worst repair they have seen and that although they can sort it visually it will still be a 2K bill.


I did ask before I bought it whether it had any accident damage and they said (verbally of course) No. They must have known. They are now saying that they HPI'd the car and had it MOT'd so it must be roadworthy. My History checks also show nothing on the history in terms of claims etc.


I'm now left with a car which i know has had some trauma, but i dont know what, other than it was extensive, and a repair that is even to my eyes quite shocking. I actually don't want to drive it now as I am unsure of the full extent. I've also just sold my Mk3 with FSH and all and i mean all bills from new and so am a bit stuffed.


I paid top money for it at 5.5K and spending another 2k on it for a car that I will declare to any future owner has been repaired so will be devalued, seems mad. But I'm stuck.


If anyone can offer any words of advice, I really would be grateful. As fellow VW people, please don't offer advice along the lines of you should have looked closer. By god, I know that and it hurts that I didn't.


Absolutely gutted.


 


 


 


 


 




#2 Stuart_tate41

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:26 PM

Well as it was a dealer surley you can take it back as if it is as bad as you say it's not what was sold to you! Espically for that money I'd be down there tomorrow waiting for them to open!

#3 chrisr

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:28 PM

 Sorry to hear your missfortune with the car.


Personally I would politely ask the dealership you bought it from to take it back & refund you the money, If they refuse then take pics of the damaged areas & enclose them in a letter asking for a refund. (Keep a copy of the letter)


If they reply & still refuse then mention Trading standards may get involved, If that doesnt shake them up a bit then I would go to your local Citizens advice bureau & ask what the next course of action could be.


 


 



#4 Montana_GtiTurbo

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 03:38 PM

 Sorry to hear your missfortune with the car.

Personally I would politely ask the dealership you bought it from to take it back & refund you the money, If they refuse then take pics of the damaged areas & enclose them in a letter asking for a refund. (Keep a copy of the letter)

If they reply & still refuse then mention Trading standards may get involved, If that doesnt shake them up a bit then I would go to your local Citizens advice bureau & ask what the next course of action could be.

 

 

 +1 [Y] either that or go in with a big tub of the ole vaseline slam it on the table and say refund or you'll be the one who feels shafted haha  


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#5 Manderson

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:28 PM

 I have an appt with a real VW agent at 8.15 tomorrow. They are going to give it a visual health check but know what i really am looking for. They are not allowed to tell me anything but may give me a nod if they think I should get an engineers report. Of course, they didn't say that. It makes sense that they don't want dodgy dubs out there too doesn't it?


Am I allowed to mention the garage on here if I don't slag them off, just to let others know to check very carefully? Maybe also to check before anyone buys if maybe they may have been prosecuted by trading standards last year. Not my opinion of whether it may be worth paying more attention, but information thats available through a google search? Why did I not find this............such an idiot. My '56 is in better condition..


 



#6 Dod 1396

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:36 PM

 


Have a look on the  the VOSA website to check you have a proper MOT...will also tell you if it had advisories etc


Edit:


http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/OwningAVehicle/Mot/DG_10020539



#7 Manderson

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:46 PM

 I only had the slip when I bought it.


Have now checked VOSA and got this.


Date of test:


19/11/2010


Certificate issued (Pass)


Odometer reading:


40,360 Miles


Test number:


190273720337


Test station name:


C & R REPAIRS LTD


Test station number:


V102456


Test station telephone number:


01392 860004


Test class:


IV


Test expiry date:


15/12/2011


Advisory Notice issued


Offside Front Macpherson strut has slight movement at the upper attachment (2.5.A.1c)


Service brake Your vehicle has only just met the required service brake efficiency. It would appear that the braking system requires adjustment or repair. (3.7.B.1a)


Parking brake Your vehicle has only just met the required park brake efficiency. It would appear that the braking system requires adjustment or repair. (3.7.B.1b)


Slight damage to offside front floor


 



#8 olie3146

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:46 PM

I had the exact same thing happen to me when I bought a 3 series BMW a few years back... and I felt exactly the same after I found out what a dog it was.


 


It was a case of my heart ruling my head, the car looking stunning and I got a little excited


After taking it to the garage to sort out the steering allignment I was told :-


"after giving it a full inspection I honestly cant let this back on the road"


I was given a list as long as my arm and told If I had to do any type of hard breaking the lines would have just snapped


 


My advice to you, get in touch with Citizens Advice Bureau A.S.A.P. Basically you have what's called a "cooling off period" when bought from a dealer (The time slips my mind but its around 2 weeks) where if you are not totally satisfied with the vehicle you can take it back with all documents and ask for a full refund, This is exactly what I did with the BMW (needless to say the garage wasn't impressed when I parked on the forecourt and gave them the keys)


 


CAB will tell you to write a letter explaining that you are not happy with the vehicle and list everything that you have been told is wrong, in the letter state that you are within the cooling off period (I hope you still are) and that you are rejecting the car on the ground above


 


Send the letter recorded delivery and keep a copy for yourself


I think I still have a copy of my letter that I wrote which your more than happy to have and change the relevant information (send me your e-mail in a PM if you think it would help)


C.A.B will be able to give you all the advice you need, but you need to act fast as time isn't on your side when it comes to these things


Good luck



#9 Manderson

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:48 PM

 Its a bit more than slight damage to the O/S front floor



#10 Golfin

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 06:52 PM

As above mate.. you have statutory rights one of which is a cooling off period.. if you present them with enough evidence THEY HAVE TO TAKE IT BACK!



#11 Manderson

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:12 PM

Thanks for your help folks. I will speak to Keywise cars ltd in Rewe again tomorrow once i have been to the main dealer for a check over and if I need to will take a letter up to them personally.



#12 Zig

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:14 PM

 Hi mate sorry to hear about your car ... that sucks, I kind of know how you feel. Me and the missus rented a flat a few years back, at the vewing the place was a bomb site, but the landlord was like.... yeah we're renevating the place its gonna look really good when its done... so we signed up and rented his flat. BIG mistake. When we moved in the place was shoot tip.... exposed wires unfinished/shoddy decorating, the boiler exploded and when it rained water poured in through the light fittings (dangerous!!) anyway we went down to his place with an letter stating how he basically conned us and had infringed our statatuory rights, we told him we had spoked to watchdog (on the telly) and if he didnt repay all the rent we had ayed him since we moved in we would be exposed as a fraud on national TV. We got all our money back and lived there rent free untill we found a new flat. WIN. Some people are just out to [CREATIVE SWEARING REMOVED] you over IMO you just need to play hard ball to get what you want... hope it all works out for you[Y]


 



#13 olie3146

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:24 PM

Thanks for your help folks. I will speak to Keywise cars ltd in Rewe again tomorrow once i have been to the main dealer for a check over and if I need to will take a letter up to them personally.

The reason for sending the letter recorded delivery is so that he cant say he never received (if it does go to court) if you hand deliver it he can just throw it away and deny all knowledge and waste time fobbing you off until you run out of your cooling off period



#14 Manderson

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 07:32 PM

 My sis works for the post office. Should be able to sort that then.



#15 mr_wigster

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 08:22 PM

Really sorry to hear of this Mate - very bad news and I understand you must feel devastated.


I'd go back to the bodyshop who you know and who have the car at the moment.  See if you can get them to put on headed paper that, in their opinion, the repairs are dangerous and therefore make the vehicle unroadworthy.  This will then mean it's unfit for purpose, so you can then (nicely at first) seek to recover your costs and give the car back to the selling dealer.  If they refuse, you can then pursue it through the small claims court.  This would mean a trade-off between the MOT and the bodyshop's testament, so you may wish to seek further opinions on headed paper from other repairers first.  You may come out of this successful, as an MOT certificate states clearly on it that it is a safety check and not satisfactory evidence of the good mechanical condition of the vehicle (or similar words to that effect).


Good luck - hope you get your money back in full.


Wigster. 



#16 Manderson

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Posted 15 December 2010 - 10:02 AM

Took it to VW for a visual check and they have issued advisories and said that it should not be on the road. Brakes and welding are unsafe. How can anyone sell a 200BHP car when they have had an advisory on the MOT that the brakes are not good. Ok, I;m P off but what if a family had bought it and run it around for a year with leaking brakes!! Its not like they are going to get better over the year, and its winter for gods sake. VW suggested a full structural report which I have booked for friday. In fairness VW spent and hour and a half looking over it all for free.


So far then over 6k for a car that I cant drive. Its nearly Christmas and I am supposed to be picking my gran up for Christmas at the weekend. A 500 mile round trip.


So much for their stock of 'hand picked quality cars'. I have now written the letter as advised by Trading Standards, run through it with them, and sent it recorded delivery today.


If it's of any use to anybody else or of interest I'll post a copy up here.


Anybody got a large white van that they are not using over the next few weeks? I am seriously thinking of getting one and signwriting it to say in very large letters. 'Thinking of buying a second hand car? Be sure to check it VERY carefully' and then parking it everyday on the road outside the forecourt. I can't see that that would be illegal would it? I'm just stating the obvious.


Lets see what VOSA come up with tomorrow.



#17 Manderson

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:44 AM

So the latest update. VOSA came down with the chap who put the MOT on it and gave it a fresh MOT, albeit with more severe advisories. I can't believe it. Its a nail. Apparently the MOT gives only a minimum standard. I was told by VW that it should not be on the road.


New MOT has advisories of:


Advisory Notice issued


Offside Front Road wheel slightly damaged (4.2.A.1a)


Brake hydraulic reservoir fluid close to minimum level (3.6.G.2b)


Offside Front Macpherson strut has slight movement at the upper attachment (2.5.A.1c)


Rear number plate lights slightly insecure


Slight play in offside front inner steering rack joint


Vehicle has suffered severe accident damage to the offside front and the offside.


Both front lower suspension arms are of a different type. Advise to get check for compatability.


Doesn't look like an MOT is worth Sh*t then. Mine is safe for the next 12 months unless i hit something or something hits me. How is that safe !!!!! I can't use it either because I know that it is not safe and I am having to chase the dealer through the legal system, although this MOT doesn't help my case.


Unlike the dealer I actually have a concience and would not be happy to move it on for somebody else to end up seriously injured. Todays visit was to garage number 4 and all have said that they would not drive it. But according to today, its safe, as long as it isn't in an accident.


VOSA said that in any other country it would not be on the road, thats how low our MOT standard is.


I asked about the OSF wheel being -10mm on the near side. If it has 4 wheels and they turn and stop, its a pass. If it has different struts not made for that car but a lower model, its ok. One wheel sticking out from the body more than another, thats not an MOT failure.


Having wishbones of different patterns and sizes and you would imagine strengths, not an MOT failure.


The standard of welding is the worst I have ever seen but its under the carpet which cant be lifted. Not an MOT failure.


The guys from VOSA were decent and almost apologised for having to MOT it, but its a joke.


 


 



#18 R32Pete

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 09:59 AM

 Really makes for sad reading this . Gutted for you mate, Unfortuantely MOT's arnt worth the paper there written on. If it were me i would go back with the car and speak to the boss man to man, Im not sure legally where you stand but i hope it works out for you.



#19 Manderson

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:03 AM

 Sorry to hear your missfortune with the car.

Personally I would politely ask the dealership you bought it from to take it back & refund you the money, If they refuse then take pics of the damaged areas & enclose them in a letter asking for a refund. (Keep a copy of the letter)

If they reply & still refuse then mention Trading standards may get involved, If that doesnt shake them up a bit then I would go to your local Citizens advice bureau & ask what the next course of action could be.

 

 

I don't think that he is that worried about trading standards unfortunately

http://www.thisisexe...il/article.html

 

 

 



#20 Manderson

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:13 AM

Boss man has already said that he HPi'd it, took it for an MOT, and I bought it. He said that he did not need to inform me of the advisories regarding the mention of damage. To think that he is selling a potential death trap doesn't seem to sit high on his priority also.


He is not interested and told me that he has the money to fight my claim.


Nice chap.


 



#21 IbanezDan51

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 10:42 AM

 Did he in anyway mis-inform you about the car or lie to you at all?


If he has told the truth and sold the car as is then unfortunately you won't have a leg to stand on. However, if he has hidden ANY information about the car which he clearly knew about before the sale then he is up shoot creek without a paddle.


Dan



#22 Manderson

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:29 PM

Thanks Dan,


This is a dealer, not a private sale.........


I asked about any sign of defects or any sign of damage or repaired damage, he said no. Yet he didn't give me the advisory from his MOT which indicates damage. far less than VOSA have pulled up. Why detach the advisory if its just small things? the chap is a crook and his sales business is bent.


The ad says fog lights, well if it only has one and one has been replaced with a non fog unit, that isnt fog lights. Remote locking. Well yep ok, but if only one of the keys work because the other 'needs a battery' when its not actually coded......


Sold to me as a hand sourced vehicle. Their web site says that they sell quality vehicles. I don't thinkk that this falls into that catagory. Even if he was telling the truth and made a mistake in buying the car, If he had an advisory about damage, that should have been mentioned i feel.


 


 


 



#23 timbomfg

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 01:25 PM

As above mate.. you have statutory rights one of which is a cooling off period.. if you present them with enough evidence THEY HAVE TO TAKE IT BACK!

X2



#24 Manderson

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:10 PM

Confirmed that the letter is rec'd from the PO tracking system which I suppose i need for solicitors action. He has already said that he read the copy that I sent by email though and doesn't give a sh......t


What a winker.


 



#25 SUB_V5

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:35 PM

I just read this through and I feel for you. I hope you can get this sorted out.



#26 BlackMagic20vt

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 04:59 PM

 sleep with his wife?



#27 Manderson

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 05:37 PM

 This has knocked me for 6. My own beautiful lady has gone to bed and I'm trawling the internet looking at legal car websites and leaving feedback for the garage that sold me the car. Don't get me wrong, I love my lady, but its a week before Christmas and I have a nail on my drive, a balance of 400 quid in the bank and am having to use all my strength not not pay a visit to Mr Dummett.



#28 usher80

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 05:02 AM



#29 Diesel

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 06:33 AM

 It sounds like you have gone through all of the correct channels and done everything you can - getting the mot done again with VOSA standing by, and sending the letter by recorded delivery.  Unfortunately VOSA have approved of the mot pass.  I dont think there is any obligation to disclose the advisories as a seller.  He has also indicated that he would dispute any court claim.  If it had failed the 2nd mot with VOSA standing by, you would have had a case.


The fog lights issue and him saying he wasnt aware of any damage prior to the sale I dont think would be worth much on your side in the long run.  Annoying I know.


I really feel for you on this one, it being so close to christmas and all.  You have shelled out top price, paid more to follow things up with a re-test, which hasnt helped at all.  The only thing I think you have any chance with is if you are still within the cooling off period to return it, whatever that is im not sure.


Failing that, It looks like it may be a very unfortunate experience.  You have the illegal options to take for some personal satisfaction only & which might get you into trouble - after which, you will still be stuck with the car,


or


part ex it on to another dealer for anything just to get rid of it and try to re-imburse yourself.  Maybe any reliable car will do for the meantime until you get sorted.


or


Fight your claim against him, but be prepared to spend more money & probably have the car sit outside your house for longer.


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#30 Manderson

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 07:41 AM

 Usher - thanks for the video link. If only the dealer was that eager to give me my money back.


Diesel. Thanks also for your input. Although i think you may be right, this guy is a crook and I will spend more money if he makes me have to. The cheek to say that he has enough money in his account to see me at court !! Ok, thats fine. I have been called as an expert witness in public inquiries a number of times (unfortunately architecture based and not cars) since 1992 so I am far from a novice. On the other hand his appearances in court don't seem to be as successful.


This is not just about being p-d off about my money. He should not be doing what he does.


 







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