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Confusing VW brake pad part numbers...



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#1 yurtesen

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Posted 27 December 2018 - 10:30 PM

I am looking at this:
http://www.oemepc.co...art_id/0/lang/e

There are 2 different types of pads for:
1LA = Disc brakes front
1ZQ = Disc brakes front (Geomet D)

So for 1LA it is 6R0 698 151 A and for 1ZQ it is 5C0 698 151

All the other brake parts seem to be same. Can you tell what is the actual difference between these brake pads? Because they seem to look identical on pictures? Is there any materials difference? But what would that accomplish since brake disk does not have different part number between 1LA and 1ZQ? I don't get it. Any explanations would be appreciated!

Thanks!




#2 Martog

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:38 AM

Could be down to a couple of things.

 

1, Caliper manufacture, ie ATE, Girling, Lucas etc...

2, Brake pad wear wires.

3, Springs etc...

 

I work as a driver for a motor factors, and if there is more than one option on such things as discs and pads we send the lot, with the usual "use what you need, send back what you don't". Customers vehicles are on ramps and any hold ups begin to cause problems.

 

Modern stuff can be a minefield though. Bestest thing you can do is take your sample to the factors and he will be able to give you the right part first time, everytime.  :)



#3 yurtesen

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 01:39 AM

Hmm but there would be no reason to force a specific manufacturer if the pads are exactly same. Neither of the pads have wear wires. They look identical in every way. Also, as all other brake parts are the same, the pads should be identical physically or they would not fit. The funny thing is that when you look at aftermarket products, they have both numbers exchangeable. Eg. one aftermarket product can be used for both part numbers. This also tells me that parts are identical physically.

 

Martog, I thought you can always send the correct parts using the PR codes of the vehicle (unles owner made drastic changes). When I checked my VIN from erwin I got literally 189 PR codes for it. If I take the part with me, all they can do is to look if they look similar. It is not like they can know the materials used in manufacturing.



#4 used-to-own-a-vr6

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 09:19 AM

I had same issue with my MK5 Golf on front pads. VW show two different part numbers depending on the PR code, but Brembo etc have one part which is listed for both VW part numbers.

With mine, the only difference between the VW part numbers was that one was 0.1mm longer than the other. I guess that Brembo realise that a 0.1mm difference does not make a difference with fitting.

Also, the other thing it could be is VW now make 2 'qualities' of parts - normal and economy. The economy is cheaper and have different part numbers. They use different materials, and VW say to use them on older cars.

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#5 northpole

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 09:22 AM

Because of this reason I usually get well known brands...there are literally hundreds of manufacturers that sell brake pads and I like using ATE, Zimmermann, Brembo and Green stuff. All make fast road pads that are stickier according to the manufactures than the stanfard oem pad. And with all 4 of them I have noticed the brakes are a lot grippier.
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#6 yurtesen

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 11:07 AM

@northpole I had VW pads in rear brakes and few months back I put some ceramic pads and coated disk from ATE. I feel no difference and science backs up my feelings. When the car is in yearly check. They check the braking power and year after year machine records ~3Kn front brakes and ~2.5Kn in rear brakes. This year results exactly the same for rear brakes. There are differences from year to year, it goes up and down a little bit but I think that is mostly measurement error. Therefore I have to disagree with your assessment. The only difference was that ceramic pads seem to be cleaner, there is still some brake dust but it seems much less. Also, if I press the brake pedal hard, I can get the ABS engaged. So I am thinking no need for grippier.

 

@used-to-own-a-vr6 As the part notes explain, the selection criteria is if the car is equipped with normal front disk or geomet disk.  Which itself is strange because there is only 1 part code for the disk itself (so you can't chose normal or geomet coated). So there is no condition where a size difference may be required or make sense. Because between normal and coated disk, the only difference is few microns thick paint. :)

 

The economy parts have different part numbers and notes.



#7 Calico

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 11:53 AM

Lot of websites use library pictures so they wont show the actual differences why don't you just buy the part that is the same as yours according to your PR code. 



#8 northpole

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 12:36 PM

Funny that I changed pads to actually notice the car beaking faster and a test with normal pads vs stickier pads on a dry road showed a difference in 10 meters.... same disks same brake calipers...

But hey if you got ceramic pads and disks you obviously did the same brake test on a road not just on a roller that only shows break force... that obviously doesn't change unless you change the calipers and disks for bigger ones and change the brake master cylinder for one of a bigger model....

But if you keep using the same brake master cylinder even with bigger calipers the applied pressure on the pads willing change. So your test wouldn't show an improvement period.

You literally need to take it out on the road to notice the difference.

#9 yurtesen

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 04:26 PM

@northpole You said aftermarket brake pad producers claim to have better friction properties (?stickier?) than genuine parts. Albeit without providing a link to any aftermarket producer which claim it, and no I don't accept german etiquette this time as an answer ;) so my answer was to that notion and of course calipers, cylinder etc. should be constant when testing difference in the pad performance.

 

I am slightly confused, First you say that you changed your pads and achieved 10m difference. In next paragraph you say changing only pads will result in same brake force (therefore should be no change?). That does seem like two conflicting notions.

 

But because when I press the brakes hard, they get locked. ABS kicks in and starts pumping them and continue as long as tyres keep skidding. I should not be able to get very different results at stopping distance independent of whatever I change. Brakes can't perform better than getting locked and ABS kicking in.

 

Also, about the master cylinder. If you have larger bore sized master cylinder. The fluid pressure will be less at caliper. However you may feel the pedal is tighter perhaps

 

It is all about comfort really. Do I want a brake pedal where 1cm movement will cause skidding? do I want a brake pedal which needs pressing until the end?  Most of the time, if you want to stop faster, you need to get better tyres.


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#10 Gti Fly

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 04:42 PM

No one knows exactly the answer to your specific part numbers .


Maybe only looking at both sets of pads in front of you will yeild the answers.



As already said it could be something like change of manufacturer
Different size by a few mm
Different compound
Maybe one comes with fitting kit
Maybe one comes with anti squeel coating on the back

We are all guessing
Unless someone has better access to EKTA or has both sets in their hand then we are all guessing / throwing out possible answers

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#11 northpole

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 04:50 PM

Same brake force but stickier pads will stop the disks faster.

Like I said stuff like this should be tested on a road not a stationary roller that only notices the same pressure...

So no I am not contradicting myself... and I am not the one looking for pads you are so of you want to check the suppliers statements, all of which I named by the way, look it up for yourself.

As every one of the ones I named do a better version of the oem brake pad end of story.

Or just keep to the oem or aftermarket direct replacement for your brakes.

#12 yurtesen

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 05:19 PM

@northpole test on roller will not make your brakes work differently than using them on road. You press the pedal and they squeze the disk. Result simply depends on friction coefficient of the material and the surface area.

 

You just keep telling aftermarket producers make better versions but there is literally no proof of this. Again, no producer I saw tells their brake pads are better than genuine VW item. I only see that the manufacturers tell their products are produced with similar standards as genuine VW items. It is simple to measure brake performance on a roller. If the aftermarket producer managed to make better pads. There would be numbers to back it up in their marketing materials.

 

I trust in numbers :) at least since I watched this TV program where they run a blind test on random people. 2 identical cakes and they told to people that one was produced using better components (ingredients) and people actually felt that the more expensive one was juicier and tastier. So....


Edited by yurtesen, 28 December 2018 - 05:20 PM.


#13 northpole

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 05:57 PM

Like I said just use the oem or equivalent from the aftermarket...

But if you would take the time to look at the manufactures websites you can read their statements and see their tests they conducted you would also find the numbers you so clearly want to see.

But you want links provided for you I say use Google and find them for yourself, I'm not going to do that for you. Even a quick YouTube search pops up loads of independent brake pad tests. But ofcourse I'm just saying stuff without trying it or looking at numbers

#14 Martog

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Posted 28 December 2018 - 09:35 PM

Hmm but there would be no reason to force a specific manufacturer if the pads are exactly same. Neither of the pads have wear wires. They look identical in every way. Also, as all other brake parts are the same, the pads should be identical physically or they would not fit. The funny thing is that when you look at aftermarket products, they have both numbers exchangeable. Eg. one aftermarket product can be used for both part numbers. This also tells me that parts are identical physically.

 

Martog, I thought you can always send the correct parts using the PR codes of the vehicle (unles owner made drastic changes). When I checked my VIN from erwin I got literally 189 PR codes for it. If I take the part with me, all they can do is to look if they look similar. It is not like they can know the materials used in manufacturing.

 

 

We have just started to use the Jurotec brand of aftermarket brake disc, pads, drums, shoes, fitting kits et al, swapping from the Apec brand we have used for many years and Jurotec will list one part number that will replace maybe as many as 3 sets of pad part numbers (for instance) from the Apec brand.

 

This is budget stuff though, but some pads can be as much as £40!!!  :huh:



#15 Calico

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 12:57 PM

"But because when I press the brakes hard, they get locked. ABS kicks in and starts pumping them and continue as long as tyres keep skidding. I should not be able to get very different results at stopping distance independent of whatever I change. Brakes can't perform better than getting locked and ABS kicking in."

 

This is the worst thing I have heard and I hear it time and time again. You don't drive around smashing your brake peddle to stop you use it to slow you down there is a difference and different pads can slow you down better than others. this has been proven. Otherwise we would all use crappy brake pads and really sticky tyres . Also the tests that are being carried out at an MOT station only make sure your brakes meet the required safety standard  they will not tell you how much above the safety standard your brakes are hence you always get the same reading



#16 yurtesen

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 02:07 PM

@Calico  Read this and this. As you can see from the friction formulas which are "proven" universally. Friction depends on the coefficient and the pressure applied to the parts (assuming parts do not change shape under pressure). Yes, you can have different friction coefficients on different pads. It can make your brakes feel softer or harder. All true. But since changing brake pad does not change the force exerted by the caliper piston. The final braking force would be different if the pad has very different coefficient.This is proved based on scientific formulas and tests. Eg. friction formulas and when the braking force of your brakes is tested on the machine.

 

The test made at yearly checks is measuring the braking force. Again, you are wrong because it is NOT a pass/fail result only test (while you still pass or fail). You would be correct if you got a simple fail or pass result. But you actually get the braking force measured in numbers.

 

If it makes it easier to understand, let me explain in a more simple way. If you go to amusement park and they measure your exact height with a long enough ruler to determine if you pass a height limit. You do not only get that you pass or fail the test, you get your height as a measurable figure. You can not tell me that the test done at amusement park "only" tells if I pass or fail, right?

 

Based on the test results and known science. We can conclude that the aftermarket part I used has a similar friction coefficient and therefore it will not cause a different feel when braking. In addition the part producer itself did NOT claim that the part has better or worse braking power. Here is link to ATE ceramic parts catalog where the advantages are discussed. Nowhere it says it will allow me to stop quicker. The part producer itself does not claim the part gives much more braking power. So why should anybody disagree with that?

 

However, if you rely on your feet to do the feeling, you will fail. Because we are plagued by the proven concept of placebo effect. When you change your brake pads. First brand new parts will function differently to worn parts and also you know you put more expensive parts and readily expect better results.

 

Anyway, what I wanted to learn was if anybody knew the difference between two part numbers and it appears nobody knows it.


Edited by yurtesen, 29 December 2018 - 02:07 PM.


#17 northpole

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 03:10 PM

nope as it doesn't provide any reason for the multiple different part numbers, it could be a number of things,... multiple oem suppliers, a change of friction material or a change of the composition of the pads backplate (better heat dispersion) etc etc etc... but as i stated before, if you are happy with how the brakes preformed, either use the same part number or get an aftermarket equivalent to the oem pad. they should be fine. I haven't heard of people really complaining about oem or aftermarket direct replacement brakepads from well known brands... they either fit perfectly fine without a problem or they got delivered the wrong pads that don't fit because the seller send out the wrong one...  that is about it (we are talking oem replacement brake pads here not stickier pads) 



#18 gerrywac

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 05:54 PM

nope as it doesn't provide any reason for the multiple different part numbers, it could be a number of things,... multiple oem suppliers, a change of friction material or a change of the composition of the pads backplate (better heat dispersion) etc etc etc... but as i stated before, if you are happy with how the brakes preformed, either use the same part number or get an aftermarket equivalent to the oem pad. they should be fine. I haven't heard of people really complaining about oem or aftermarket direct replacement brakepads from well known brands... they either fit perfectly fine without a problem or they got delivered the wrong pads that don't fit because the seller send out the wrong one... that is about it (we are talking oem replacement brake pads here not stickier pads)

As you say aftermarket pads often perform very similarly to OEM originals and there is a very good reason for this, a relatively unknown piece of European legislation introduced in late 1999 known as ECE R90 or Regulation 90.

Essentialy this stipulates that aftermarket replacement pads for road legal cars are quality and performance monitored and must perform in a similar manner to the pads fitted when the car was type approved with no great variation in initial or overall levels of grip, fade resistance etc

This is a largely safety related thing to try and ensure that an untrained, relatively unskilled and inexperienced "average" driver can step from a well maintained car to have the brakes changed and return to it with little or no overall change in the braking performance in terms of pedal pressure for a intended level of braking.

In pre-regulation days poor quality and entirely different behaving pads abounded and many drivers from those days or ones who have tried so called fast road/rally/race may well have experienced the initial face in the windscreen or OMG it's not going to stop moment or a noticeable change in front rear balance with new pads things that are quite dangerous until you get accustomed to them.

There are of course differences that aren't regulated and I experienced an example when I first DIY changed the pads on my 07 Golf bought as a dealer maintained car 8 years ago.

When the time came I looked into OEM pads but on cost grounds went with Pagid aftermarket (a respected brand I had used regularly in the past) rather than genuine swaps for the old VW branded main dealer ones.

No noticeable change in the braking but I quickly noticed they were considerably quieter and generated much less dust and later they appeared to wear slower and abrade the disks less so that seemed like a surprising and unexpected win-win for me.

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#19 northpole

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 06:35 PM

As you say aftermarket pads often perform very similarly to OEM originals and there is a very good reason for this, a relatively unknown piece of European legislation introduced in late 1999 known as ECE R90 or Regulation 90.

Essentialy this stipulates that aftermarket replacement pads for road legal cars are quality and performance monitored and must perform in a similar manner to the pads fitted when the car was type approved with no great variation in initial or overall levels of grip, fade resistance etc

This is a largely safety related thing to try and ensure that an untrained, relatively unskilled and inexperienced "average" driver can step from a well maintained car to have the brakes changed and return to it with little or no overall change in the braking performance in terms of pedal pressure for a intended level of braking.

In pre-regulation days poor quality and entirely different behaving pads abounded and many drivers from those days or ones who have tried so called fast road/rally/race may well have experienced the initial face in the windscreen or OMG it's not going to stop moment or a noticeable change in front rear balance with new pads things that are quite dangerous until you get accustomed to them.

There are of course differences that aren't regulated and I experienced an example when I first DIY changed the pads on my 07 Golf bought as a dealer maintained car 8 years ago.

When the time came I looked into OEM pads but on cost grounds went with Pagid aftermarket (a respected brand I had used regularly in the past) rather than genuine swaps for the old VW branded main dealer ones.

No noticeable change in the braking but I quickly noticed they were considerably quieter and generated much less dust and later they appeared to wear slower and abrade the disks less so that seemed like a surprising and unexpected win-win for me.

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I knew about the legislation, just couldn't be bothered to put it up... yurtesen likes to just be blunt and he just can't be arsed to do research himself. He just likes telling people they have no clue and if you do than he wants you to show him the lot.... f-that I am nobodies slave.
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#20 Calico

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Posted 29 December 2018 - 11:38 PM

@Calico  Read this and this. As you can see from the friction formulas which are "proven" universally. Friction depends on the coefficient and the pressure applied to the parts (assuming parts do not change shape under pressure). Yes, you can have different friction coefficients on different pads. It can make your brakes feel softer or harder. All true. But since changing brake pad does not change the force exerted by the caliper piston. The final braking force would be different if the pad has very different coefficient.This is proved based on scientific formulas and tests. Eg. friction formulas and when the braking force of your brakes is tested on the machine.

 

The test made at yearly checks is measuring the braking force. Again, you are wrong because it is NOT a pass/fail result only test (while you still pass or fail). You would be correct if you got a simple fail or pass result. But you actually get the braking force measured in numbers.

 

If it makes it easier to understand, let me explain in a more simple way. If you go to amusement park and they measure your exact height with a long enough ruler to determine if you pass a height limit. You do not only get that you pass or fail the test, you get your height as a measurable figure. You can not tell me that the test done at amusement park "only" tells if I pass or fail, right?

 

Based on the test results and known science. We can conclude that the aftermarket part I used has a similar friction coefficient and therefore it will not cause a different feel when braking. In addition the part producer itself did NOT claim that the part has better or worse braking power. Here is link to ATE ceramic parts catalog where the advantages are discussed. Nowhere it says it will allow me to stop quicker. The part producer itself does not claim the part gives much more braking power. So why should anybody disagree with that?

 

However, if you rely on your feet to do the feeling, you will fail. Because we are plagued by the proven concept of placebo effect. When you change your brake pads. First brand new parts will function differently to worn parts and also you know you put more expensive parts and readily expect better results.

 

Anyway, what I wanted to learn was if anybody knew the difference between two part numbers and it appears nobody knows it.

 

If you are so intelligent why you are asking a forum for information instead of going to who ever runs the website that you have a problem with. It looks to me as though you have started the thread to kick up CR4P for no reason just buy them both and send back the ones you don't want instead of trying to prove how intelligent you are. I for one couldn't give 2p for the rubbish you expected me to read its all physics that I couldn't be bothered with in school and certainly couldn't give a poo about now. Your grave will be the same size as mine everything else in life is immaterial



#21 TomasLT

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 08:48 AM

Know those egyptian dudes that have like city sized graves? Yeah, some people just are better.

As for brakes, first and all, what kind a shoot is that, just get some brakes nobody cares they don’t matter, you’re not at a level to need the differences they might provide. If you want to argue some horse crap, clearly state so in the first post.

As for some arguing. Ex. Northpole got 10 meters more with better pads than you can with yours. His car’s weight, distribution of, tyres and all other shenanigans might dictate that he was not reaching full potential of his braking setup and when he got those better pads, they may have pushed it a bit towards the good side. While your setup is already at it’s peak.
To put it simply in this ex. his car is better and yours is shoot .


Another point. I’ve noticed those braking power numbers myself before, they got me thinking too, but I stopped when I went around my car park and checked all those numbers. Best ex. golf mk3 with 195 with shoot winter tyres (I don’t remember exact numbers it was several years ago) similar results to a 2012 pick up truck with 265 summer tyres. I know it’s not exact science, tyre pattern and such, actual cm^2 not taken into account, but facts are: one is way heavier, more tyres, has more grip, more brakes, better everything, yet the kN numbers are basically the same ?? I wanted to further test this by going at it with slicks on, but they didn’t let me for whatever reason, so with data I had I went with;
In essence you just go to rollers and they do it just for the pass or fail and flash some numbers. There’s nothing actual and scientific about it. You need to make a proper test on it, same car, same day, same rollers,same cooling intervals between tests, same tyres, same discs, same pads, same weight, same distribution, same tyre temperature, same disc, pad, fluid, everything temperature, same mechanical foot applying same force on pedal (more accurate would be oil press inside system), and loads of different horse crap I can’t think of right now. And only then you can change one factor and make an accurate observation. Which you can’t and only couple instances are there that can. All of your arguments are just theory not backed by raw data and there are to many variables for you or me or him to prove that this or that is better. And more importantly there’s no point for it because at the end of the day you’re rocking in 1.6 mk4 and a bicycle can outbrake and outrun you, just get the cheapest pads your self esteem allows you to.



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#22 Calico

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 12:00 PM

Know those egyptian dudes that have like city sized graves? Yeah, some people just are better.

As for brakes, first and all, what kind a shoot is that, just get some brakes nobody cares they don’t matter, you’re not at a level to need the differences they might provide. If you want to argue some horse crap, clearly state so in the first post.

As for some arguing. Ex. Northpole got 10 meters more with better pads than you can with yours. His car’s weight, distribution of, tyres and all other shenanigans might dictate that he was not reaching full potential of his braking setup and when he got those better pads, they may have pushed it a bit towards the good side. While your setup is already at it’s peak.
To put it simply in this ex. his car is better and yours is shoot .


Another point. I’ve noticed those braking power numbers myself before, they got me thinking too, but I stopped when I went around my car park and checked all those numbers. Best ex. golf mk3 with 195 with shoot winter tyres (I don’t remember exact numbers it was several years ago) similar results to a 2012 pick up truck with 265 summer tyres. I know it’s not exact science, tyre pattern and such, actual cm^2 not taken into account, but facts are: one is way heavier, more tyres, has more grip, more brakes, better everything, yet the kN numbers are basically the same ?? I wanted to further test this by going at it with slicks on, but they didn’t let me for whatever reason, so with data I had I went with;
In essence you just go to rollers and they do it just for the pass or fail and flash some numbers. There’s nothing actual and scientific about it. You need to make a proper test on it, same car, same day, same rollers,same cooling intervals between tests, same tyres, same discs, same pads, same weight, same distribution, same tyre temperature, same disc, pad, fluid, everything temperature, same mechanical foot applying same force on pedal (more accurate would be oil press inside system), and loads of different horse crap I can’t think of right now. And only then you can change one factor and make an accurate observation. Which you can’t and only couple instances are there that can. All of your arguments are just theory not backed by raw data and there are to many variables for you or me or him to prove that this or that is better. And more importantly there’s no point for it because at the end of the day you’re rocking in 1.6 mk4 and a bicycle can outbrake and outrun you, just get the cheapest pads your self esteem allows you to.



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I think you'll find he's from Finland not Egypt lol



#23 northpole

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Posted 30 December 2018 - 12:06 PM

@TomasLT nope I didn't say my car is better and his car is shoot i just told him my experience with stickier pads. Also every stickier pad manufacturer puts their claims up on their websites... i gave him the names of some of the pads I used in the past and present, so he can look it up. But he won't do some research just says blah you are just saying all aftermaket stuff is better.. something i have never done, just said most big brands produce better than oem stuff and when they do they usually state it on their websites, with numbers and test results. But he can't be arsed to do his own research... (and i'm not doing it for him F that)

 

and if you look at every reply i put up, i kept saying just get whatever brakepads that are direct oem replacements since he is not after stickier pads, he might find that the aftermarket oem equivalent stuff is a lot cheaper than the original VW stuff but that is up to him.

 

And to be honest I don't care if he tries to get others to do the work for him I just won't do it. I will try and point him into the right direction but he likes to question everything and that can grind on people. 


  • Calico likes this





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